We Didn’t Start the Fire: Why Are so Many Innocent People Convicted on Faulty Arson Evidence?
Imran Syed of the Michigan Innocence Clinic explains how outdated arson science led to wrongful convictions, walks through the clinic's exoneration of Walter Forbes after 37 years in prison, and discusses why defense attorneys need better resources and forensic training.
About This Episode
Imran Syed is nationally recognized attorney, professor, and documentary film producer. As assistant director of Michigan’s Innocence Clinic, he and a coterie of supervised law students are at the forefront of criminal justice reform, investigating and litigating a wide variety of cases with special focus on forensic science-based innocence. Having litigated several arson wrongful convictions based on outdated science, Syed is an outspoken supporter of strategies needed to address obsolete scientific evidence and its role in false imprisonments. In Episode 93 of Open Mike, Syed and Mike discuss potential outcomes of the justice reform movement, and why arson cases may specifically lead the charge to widespread, national reform.
Show Notes
- Imran Syed bio and background as assistant director of the University of Michigan Innocence Clinic.
- Imran Syed, thank you for being on Open Mike today!
- You don’t have a giant ego, but let’s put it into perspective… how long has the Michigan Innocence Clinic been in existence, how many convictions have you overturned… give us some general statistics!
- In eleven years of being open, the Innocence Clinic has had twenty-four successful victories ranging from arson to murder.
- Let’s set the table for our viewers… how many cases do you get asked to review per year?
- On average, how many cases per year would you say you open?
- What percentage of the work you do is conducted by law students as opposed to the clinic’s three supervising attorneys?
- I know that the law students there, like yourself, are going on to do this for a living which has to be gratifying for you guys…
- I’ve interviewed six people who have been wrongfully convicted in Michigan, and the only reason they’re home with their families is because of organizations like the Innocence Clinic. Some of these cases you even worked on! How does the enormity of what you’re doing add up in your brain? How does that feel?
- You were instrumental in the Dwayne Provience case, which was one of the country’s first non-DNA innocence cases. Why was this particular case so groundbreaking?
- It feels like you can’t go another week with another wrongful conviction being overturned, right?
- Out of all these interviews I’ve been doing, and all these podcasts in this industry… I’ve met the most generous people. Your community is pretty special. When I’m reading through these cases preparing for an interview, the defense attorneys in wrongful convictions are usually just bad. What percentage of the time did exonerees have a stellar defense with the right experts and right arguments?
- You actually wrote a film on the case we were talking about called The Price of Providence… it won a few awards at the Great Lakes Film Festival, so congratulations on that! Tell us how about that project and how we can watch it!
- Another case you worked on, Walter Forbes — recently released after 37 years for a murder he didn’t commit. How long ago was he exonerated?
- Why don’t you take us through that… how long did you work on that case?
- And how is Walter Forbes now that he’s out of prison after 37 years?
- Talk about patience! This man should be giving lectures on the topic — I can’t even wait 37 minutes for an answer on some things, let alone 37 years. It’s unbelievable!
- It’s interesting, every exoneree I’ve met hasn’t come out of prison embittered, and it’s very consistent! They’re appreciative and they don’t want to waste another day being mad — and they’re all horrible stories! The only good aspect of these stories is that they’ve been released.
- One area that the Michigan Innocence Clinic specializes in is arson cases… I’ve never worked on any arson case — why are so many people imprisoned based on evidence surrounding arson?
- You have so much knowledge about arson cases… there are probably thousands of arson cases across this country right now being brought for wrongful reasons. Are you able to implement this knowledge and proliferate it to their defense attorneys, court-appointed or otherwise? Or are they on their own and forced to Google? How do you get the right information to the right people?
- I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention your clinic’s success in Abusive Head Trauma cases… It feels similar to what you’re describing in the arson world, which is basically junk science. Am I right?
- Maybe you and will one day have future conversations on this and civil attorneys across the country listening to this will be more inclined to help. I’m a big believer everyone should do a certain amount of pro bono hours per year, but not everyone does. Maybe with your professorship, we’ll be able to teach and shed some light on it!
- Any time there’s been reform, it has followed a civil litigation case with competent, qualified, oftentimes high-profile attorneys. Very rarely does it come out of criminal cases because no one has the resources to litigate the cases properly.
- Professor Imran Syed, thank you for being with us today and taking time to educate our listeners and viewers.
- If you know people who are interested in these issues, forward this episode to them and be sure to like and subscribe to our channel! Thank you for watching Open Mike!
FAQs
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How many cases has the Michigan Innocence Clinic won, and how does it choose cases?
Syed said the clinic has had 24 successful victories in 11 years. Unlike the DNA focus of most innocence work when it was founded, it looks at every case that possibly involves a wrongful conviction, with no requirement of DNA or a minimum remaining sentence. It receives about 300 to 400 applications a year; students do the initial review, supervisors decide which to look into further, and about 30 to 40 new investigations are opened each year.
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Why were so many arson convictions based on faulty science?
Syed said that largely in the 1970s and ’80s, investigators believed certain markings at a fire scene, such as a puddle-like pattern on the floor, blistered wood or window glass breaking a certain way, meant an accelerant was used. These were not scientifically tested theories. A couple of investigators began controlled experiments in the late ’80s, and in the early ’90s the National Fire Protection Association did controlled testing with scientists and published NFPA 921, now the standard of care.
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How was David Gavitt exonerated of his arson conviction?
Syed said Gavitt was convicted in 1986 after a house fire in Ionia killed his wife and two young daughters. The clinic began looking at the case in 2009, and John Lentini, whom Syed called one of the fathers of the arson-science reform movement, said it was the prototypical wrongful conviction. In 2010 the clinic took the case to the Ionia County prosecutor, whose own independent investigators found no evidence under today’s standards that the fire was arson. Gavitt was exonerated in 2012 without going to court.
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How was Walter Forbes exonerated after 37 years in prison?
Syed said Forbes was convicted in a fatal Jackson apartment fire on one woman’s testimony that she saw him and two other men pouring gasoline. He filed no post-conviction motions on his own, instead meticulously documenting his case for a future attorney. The clinic began investigating in 2011 and took the case around 2016. The witness eventually told the clinic she had lied after being threatened, and the building’s owner, an alternate suspect, had been convicted in another arson insurance fraud scheme. A Jackson County judge threw out the conviction.
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What role does inadequate defense play in wrongful convictions, according to Syed?
Asked how often a wrongful conviction case involves a defense attorney who did a great job, Syed said very close to zero, largely because attorneys have not been given the proper resources and training. He said appointed defense attorneys have felt on their own, with no help from the state police lab or prosecutors, so if a client couldn’t afford an expert there was little they could do. He said new indigent defense standards and county reforms are starting to address this.
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